<text date="23/07/2021" audio_length="1:23:13" focus_group_ID="FG3" no_participants="4" participant_source="Prolific experiments" WTR_threshold="low" co-facilitator_present="yes">

<Facilitator: So what we could do is we could just give our name and just to learn a little bit about each other, I have a question for you, and that is: if you have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, what would it be? So if you could give your name and your lifetime supply, and then if you could pick somebody to go next. So, I'll go first. Hi, I'm [facilitator], as you know, and if I could have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, I think it would have to be coffee, because I get through so much of it. My life seems to depend on it. To go next, I'll pick... [F6].>

F6: Well I'm [F6], I live in Derby, and I can't think right now what I'd like a lifetime supply of! 

<Facilitator: Too many choices.>

F6: I don't know. Maybe chocolate then. 

<Facilitator: That's a pretty good choice. And who would you like to go next?>

F6: Erm, [F7].

F7: Right. I'm [F7]. I live in Rutland, which is England's smallest county. If I were to have a lifetime supply of anything, it's going to have to be well-chilled sauvignon blanc.

<Facilitator: Nice. Nice. And who would you like to go next, who are you going to pick to go next.>

F7: Er, [F8].

F8: I'm [F8] from Cumbria. I really don't know what, I'd normally say chocolate I think but it's so hot today. I'm going to say fruit because I eat loads and loads of fruit. And I'd like it delivered fresh daily as well. A little bit greedy there. And could I go on to [F9] next please?

F9: Okay, so this is really hard. I would have something very boring: washing up liquid (laughs) because you forever... It costs so much. It costs more at the refill shop than it does to buy a new bottle. And d'you know, you can use it for doing your weeding, waking up weed killer for the garden. It's versatile. You can use it for so many things. So I'll have some natural, plant-based washing up liquid.

<Facilitator: Amazing! I did not know that about washing up liquid. But that's a very good point.>

F7: With vinegar.

F9: Or bicarb. Bicarb and washing up liquid is good for the black spots on the roses, you see. Or with vinegar to kill the weeds.

F7: Indeed.

F9: Or you can use it neat on stems of plants because slugs don't like climbing up it for the dahlias. It keeps the earwigs off, you see! You can use it for more than just washing up. 

F8: I didn't know that, I spend so long taking slugs off hostas. Yeah.

<Facilitator: And you can use it to get, get a ring off your finger that's stuck on your finger. That's the only other one I know for washing up liquid.>

F9: Yeah. Anything! It's very versatile.

<Facilitator: Great. Well, I've had my, I've had my horizons broadened just there with washing up liquid I have to say. Great. So thank you, everyone. It's lovely to have you all here. As you know, I'm working on a project with [co-facilitator] about single-use plastics and reusable plastic packaging. So we've got two kind of main topics to talk about today. The first one is plastics generally...>

F9: I am listening just excuse me one minute.

<Facilitator: Yep, don't worry. So the first is plastics. And the second is reuse. So reusable packaging. So around halfway we'll, we'll move into talking about reuse. First of all, plastic-->

F9: Sorry I'm just going to open my door and I'll be back. 

Faciliator: Okay. I'll just ask and then when [F9] comes back, I can ask again. So you can have a think about your answer. So my main question is: what does 'plastic' mean to you? And, you know, what comes to mind when you hear the word 'plastic'?

F6: Children's toys! (laughs) That's what I thought of. I weren't thinking it on purpose, I were just really, just used this as one of those, you know, when you do those sorts of games, where it's you know, first word that comes to mind when someone says something, and that's why I came up with that. It's not usually what I'd think of when I think of plastic.

<Facilitator: Great. [F9], the question I just asked was, what does plastic mean to you? So what do you think of, what comes to mind when you hear the word 'plastic', and anybody can just shout out anything.>

F8: For me I, it just conjures up the images of all the waste in the seas and the animals who are suffering because of it.

F9: All our disposal society. Too much packaging on the food in the shops.

F6: I've just thought that I heard something about Lego was using, going to be using the plastic bottles to recycle them or something to er, make new Lego or something. I can't remember what it was, I've seen some adverts somewhere.

<Facilitator: Yeah?>

F9: I think we're all missold the recycling because we've all seen now what happens to our recycling that we've put out in good faith.

<Facilitator: And, so, [F7], is there anything that you think of immediately when you hear plastic? Do you agree with those?>

F7: The packaging, yes. But I think like most things, of course, it has a good side and a bad side and there are there are good uses as well as bad. And that's, that's so true of so many things in life, that there is a good aspect and the bad. It does have its good uses too.

F6: I'd agree with that.

F9: Yes.

<Facilitator: So what are some of the benefits, then, of plastic, do you think?>

F8: I'd say the medical uses.

F7: Exactly, yes. 

F8: It would be very difficult-- 

F9: Its durability--

F8: Without-- sorry, [F9]

F9: Its durability across a range of of things, and it's hidden as well, isn't it? The polymers and things that we use. 

F6: Mm.

F9: Like, the clothes being made out of it now, aren't they? You can get clothes made from recycled bottles.

F7: Yes.

F9: And recycled glasses frames!

F7: Yes.

<Facilitator: So when you see something that says it's, you know, made from recycled plastics, do you feel more inclined to buy that product?>

F6: I don't really think about it too much, to be honest.

F9: I like that when I see it, but then as [F7] said, there's two sides. So in order to reuse this plastic, how much energy has been used and created in the process? 

F7: Yeah, yeah, that's the other side, isn't it. 

F8: Yeah. I don't think that would change anything for me. Because if I were to buy something in a plastic bottle, I'd be thinking, do I really need this? Can I live without it? Is there an alternative that I can use? And I'll be the first to admit I'm, I'm not there yet. But certainly in my bathroom, plastic has pretty much disappeared and what an asset that has been, erm,  but I still do, I still do have some things in plastic that haven't worked out yet. What do you do? And I think I'm like many of us, we're on a journey aren't we? But to me, the key thing is to reduce rather than look at recycled plastics. Do we need these things? Why are we buying them? We've been conditioned to do it, haven't we? And it's like the wash, in the washing machine I used to put in the washing liquid, I put something else on top of that to help it to work... I used to put in fabric softener... I don't do that anymore--

F9: Have you gone back to powder?--

F8: Fabric softener, what's all that about?

F9: Have you gone back to powder? I use powder again

F8: Do you?

F9: Because it comes in a box, doesn't it? 

F8: Mm.

F9: We've managed for years, it's all about the marketing. And when you say about the plastics, I think the big thing, like for example, today I went shopping... Squash, it's about affordability, if you want to do it on a big scale, because clearly it must be cheap for the manufacturers to produce all this plastic 'cause like you buy a bottle of squash, there are premium brands in glass bottles but it's not the squash that children want to drink. And it's, you're paying a premium for the glass bottle. It's not, not affordable on a mass, for a lot of people. I think that's where a lot of the problem is, it's not people's willingness to change, it's their... If, I worked out, to swap toothpastes for those like individual, chewy tablet things or alternatives, it actually costs four times as much. And if it's one single person, it would be an affordable swap, 'cause you wouldn't be buying it very often. But when you're buying for a family, it becomes too difficult on a limited budget. 

F8: But then again, this isn't a judgement thing at all, this is just a question throwing out there. Do we need squash? It's something that we've been conditioned to think, "Ooh, yes, children, we'll get some squash for them"--

F9: I drink it! 

F8: Ooh, sorry!

F9: (laughs)

F8: It's very useful, that's what it is. 

F6: Mm.

F8: But, erm, did we grow up, I didn't grow up drinking squash. I grew up drinking water. And I drink water now. And I think that's a real asset, that I love water. But again, erm, I've worked in schools a lot of my life. And when you see a child's packed lunch and the amount of plastic in that, and they've got this throwaway little plastic thing of juice, why not have a reusable bottle of water? It's so much healthier. Some squashes are actually adding to the amount of chemicals children drink--

F9: I absolutely agree there on a health benefit and everything and I worked in a healthcare for over 35 years. But we have really, really bad-tasting water here. And we only have a ti-- dilute-- I filter it, our water. It's on the top end of what is legally permissible in the chlorine. We've had it tested. See if you want to drink something. Like... And I won't buy bottled water--

F8: May I suggest wine?

F9: Oh, by, by, by all means.

F7: (laughs)

F8: Isn't that why they drank beer?

F7: That's why they drank beer, yes. 

F8: Yeah, I suppose that, I suppose that's tricky, isn't it?

F9: I mean, I was even given squash as a child, because we lived in, we grew up in this area as a child. And you know, everyone I know, we all filter our water. I mean, most families around here we have the jugs in our fridges and filter the water to make it tolerable.

<Facilitator: Does everybody filter their water, is it a regional thing? Is it hard, soft water?>

F9: It's the the amount of chlorine in it. And, which you just taste, you smell it, when it comes out the tap, you smell the chlorine when you shower, because we're being developed so much with lots of extra housing, and they just treat the water.

F6: That doesn't sound very nice.

F9: It's really not.

<Facilitator: I'm quite sensitive to the taste of water, I have to say. I just wanted to pick up on something that you mentioned before, [F7], and you talked about, you know, the benefits of using plastics, especially for medical contexts. So you know, obviously with Covid there's been an increase in the amount of plastic we use... Has this situation with Covid, has that changed at all your views on plastic and using single-use plastics?>

F7: Not just plastics, but but other materials too, I mean, disposable masks has been a huge thing, hasn't it, during, during Covid. And most people I know try to use cotton ones. But there's one particular situation where I use a disposable one for good reason. But I still don't like the fact that on a, on a normal Sunday, I can get through three disposable masks. There's a good reason for doing it. But it's, it's not comfortable because there's a degree of plastic in the manufacturer of those. In medicine, it's, it's actually, again, it's a complicated thing, because years ago, many instruments were reused. They were re-sterilised, they were shoved in autoclaves. And there were people that did nothing else but autoclave instruments all day. Trays would go in, trays would go out, [F9] probably knows all about this. 

F9: Yes, I remember that yeah.

F7: And much of the stuff that was reusable, autoclaved and reused years ago, is now in a disposable packet, it's a once-only use and done, because the background to that is cross-infection and convenience and speed and the fact that the medicine has simply moved on. But it isn't without a cost in environmental terms. But again, you come back to balancing need against cost, cost in its widest sense, not just financial.

F9: I mean if you think about the number of test kits now, and if we're moving into doing daily testing--

F7: Yeah.

F9: Every single one of those test kits is made of plastic--

F7: It is.

F9: And the amount of packaging that comes with it. You know, I understand why it all comes pre-measured, the solution and that. But it's, I'm very conscious of... this is creating so much waste. 

F8: And it's shipped from China as well, isn't it?

F9: That's the irony--

F7: Which is-- nice to have a tad of irony there, but anyway, erm, yeah.

F9: And the masks and the way that people just throw their rubbish in the street.

F7: Oh, that's revolting. No need for that--

F9: That infuriates me as well--

F7: No need for that. There's no excuse for any rubbish on the street.

F9: No.

<Facilitator: So, so you'd say there has been greater visibility of plastic, I guess, since, since Covid?>

F7: Definitely, yes, yes. It's inevitable.

<Facilitator: And how about you, [F6], do you feel any differently about plastics in light of Covid? Or has it not changed your feelings towards plastics?>

F6: I don't think it's changed my feelings about plastic. It's just that it's er, made me more aware of how much rubbish people just seem to dump everywhere, you know, litter everywhere. Every time we go into lockdown, places are cleaner, we come out, we dump everything everywhere. It doesn't make any sense to me.

F9: I mean, I like the concept of all these takeaway places. You have to take your own stuff, I think, would be the way forward. You know, your refill coffee cup, even refill, a plate or whatever. Because most people that go out a takeaway plan to get it out. There's not that many that are bought on the hoof. If that became the norm, and you had to pay extra if you didn't have a cup, or a plate, or--

F6: Like carrier bags.

F9: Yeah. And go back to wrapping things in, you know, good old-fashioned paper bags, like in a baker's or something. If things were made on site, and not all commercially pre-packed.

F8: I think in the town where I live, that happens a lot of the time. But as you say, it's so expensive. So we've got a wonderful green grocer, it's out of this world. They don't use plastics. Same for the bakery in the town.

F9: We don't have a, we don't have a greengrocers in the town at all. It died years ago. So if we want to go and buy things like that, like you need a car, I go to farm shops and buy, to buy fresh loose, it becomes a job so it's not accessible to everyone.

F8: Yeah. Yeah, well, it's accessible to those who can afford to do it as well, isn't it. I do live in a timewarp kind of place where the average age is around 80 something but that's, that's lovely. 

F9: That would be lovely.

F8: It is lovely, actually, but--

F7: Sounds like Rutland. Erm. But we have a market. We have a weekly market both in, both the main towns in Rutland. I use 'main towns' as a term somewhat loosely, they're quite small. But we have a weekly market, twice weekly in Oakham, once in Uppingham. And there you take your bag along and sometimes they put small, squashy things in a paper bag. But very often things go straight into your bag. 

F9: We don't have a market either.

F7: No. You know, it's it's not new. It's a traditional way of doing things. But actually, it's quite on trend from this point of view.

F9: Sadly, we lost our markets many many years ago to the development of a rubbishy supermarket and town centre that they're now going to redevelop.

<Facilitator: So [F9], something you mentioned there, that's quite interesting, you said, takeaways, we'd be better, you know, taking our own container and doing it that way instead of having you know the same old plastic containers. If that were, you know, a mainstream option, is that something that you would all be interested in? Would you be happy to do that?>

F9: Yes, 'cause if I was going out for the day, I have a travel cup anyway. And it would just become, a bit like a mask has become the thing you take before you leave the house, you check you have one, you would check you've got a cup. If you were going off out somewhere for the day you would check... you get those compactable lunchboxes that come with a spork, you have plenty of available, lightweight things, items that you can take from home and reuse and wash up. So if it became the norm, it's a shift in, in practice, isn't it?

F8: But then having a takeaway is a shift in practice to some degrees, isn't it? And I personally wouldn't do that, because I would choose to take my-- Oh I've got it here, so I've got my trusty water bottle with me, and then have a meal out, maybe, take my own picnic, but I would avoid that takeaway situation altogether. That's my personal preference.

F9: Oh, yeah, I wouldn't choose to go out and have a takeaway. But if you've gone off for a day out, if you're on holiday, or you know, somewhere, that would be a treat, as in, you know, you go to the National Trust, for example, and part of the enjoyment would have been having coffee and cake, we've got so used to taking our own but just even taking your own cup and just buying the cake to take away to go, and... it's not quite the same as having to do it all yourself. It's a treat.

<Facilitator: So, [F8], you're saying you simply wouldn't want to have the takeaway generally, rather than if you were you wouldn't want to use your own reusable tub or something.>

F8: We've had our first Costa arrive up here, I'm really shocked that everybody's walking around with trays of, of cups. And I thought, we haven't had that before, we haven't had the amount of litter that's associated with that. And a lot of them are going into the shops in the businesses. It just doesn't appeal to me, for one thing. Having said that, I do work, at one of my jobs. I work for a Michelin-starred chef who during lockdown has delivered meals throughout the country. Erm, but they're very, they go for the most eco-friendly packaging they can do. So it is possible to get packaging that's completely biodegradable, isn't it? Not sure about for coffee, because we're sending out Michelin-starred that which are not warm and you know, not something that you're going to have straight away. And I think basically I'm trying to live pretty much as my granny did. And we used to laugh at her and her ways when we were little. But I think they had it so right. And we've just been conditioned to do things. And I feel as guilty as anybody, erm, for things like having clean clothes on, everything clean every day. What was that all about? You know, I've always worked full-time, I've been a single mum. Why should I wash everybody's clothes every day? Why don't I wash them when they were dirty? It's just things like that, which you wouldn't, you wouldn't have done that would you, erm, when we didn't have all the technology we have now to make life easier. So now, I do, I wash things when they're dirty. In this hot weather, yeah, I will wash things every day. But generally, I don't. I don't want to be part of a takeaway society. I don't mean I won't ever have a sandwich out or drink out. Well, I probably won't ever have anything in a cup out. I, I'd go and sit in, if I could, in a, in a cafe, erm, or do without and I've tried to make it so that those things are like real treats in my life, not an everyday thing. So I think we used to probably have fizzy drinks every day, when I was younger, not thinking about what it was doing. Now, anything like that, that's a treat. You do that at the weekend. Wine, you do that at the weekend. Packet of crisps that's at the weekend, makes you appreciate weekends more, makes you appreciate that kind of food more. But those kinds of, that kind of eating, it's kind of slipped into everyday life. And if you ask a child, "what's a healthy, what's a healthy lunchbox?", they tend to say, "sandwich, packet of crisps, chocolate bar".

F9: That's interesting. I think it's, it's not their lack of education, is it? Because my grandsons would come up with... they always have fruit. Yeah. There are lots of very variables--

F8: Yeah, I have-- I have to say that I've worked in challenging schools where there's high levels of poverty...

F9: Yeah.

F8: And those two things can go hand in hand in hand.

F9: Of course.

F8: Also the kinds of children who needs to be educated most into what is healthy, because when I worked in in Morecambe, life expectancy was something like 53, because of lifestyle, which is quite worrying, isn't it?

F9: It's very, but I also think, going back to the whole, the whole plastic thing, and the takeaways, looking at all of our ages that I can see us apart from obviously [facilitator], and [co-facilitator], I, like I'm not, I don't mean to be rude, [F6], because I can't see you. But I think we're all of a particular generation that have experienced previous things. And we've all seen and changed, but to do the message of getting the younger people on board, I mean, as you mentioned, the offices, it's a office culture. Because, you know, they get an hour for lunch, they go off, they buy their takeaway, they bring it back to their desk, it's, it's about changing behaviour of genera-- a generation, from child level upwards. And we can educate children as much as we like, from, you know, reception year onwards. But it's no good if those children go home, and they can't influence and educate their parents. It needs to be somehow joined up. And it needs to be, the whole thing needs to be made affordable. So buying things that aren't in, we can't not put some things in plastic, it's just not possible. But if buying the healthier option, fresh fruits and things, was cheaper, if it wasn't in plastic, i.e., you buy a bag of five apples, for example, and it costs 1.50. You buy them individually, and the weight of them, because you buy them by kilo, is going to cost you more, that is just dumb. That is like so... it's down to also the supermarkets and their profit margins and things, if they made it cheaper to buy the unpackaged, so you paid a premium on the plastic-packaged fruit and vegetables, then the very people that we need to educate and help and not just get away with the plastic, but would we also be benefitting them with a health benefit? They, we're going to win. But all the time the cheaper option is the plastic-wrapped... we're on a losing wicket.

<Facilitator: Thank you. Yeah, that's really relevant and very interesting for us. Before we move on, I just want to hear from [F6] and [F7] about about this takeaway situation. How would you feel if you weren't going to takeaway and you took your reusable tub? Is that something you would feel okay with? Or would you rather have a disposable, you know, the normal sort of tray?>

F7: I very rarely have takeaway for the simple reason that I'm coeliac. So it's quite complicated. But my local fish and chip shop does do gluten-free fish and chips, which I very occasionally have. And they say they serve them traditionally, wrapped in paper. So, that's why. They're in a greaseproof bag and wrapped in paper. But on paper, I don't object. I think one of the things that always occurs to me, which has changed in my lifetime, is milk, which always used to appear in glass bottles, which were returned, washed and reused. And it is just quite simply the fact that if you buy a pint of milk, certainly here, where I am, from the milkman, it's 81 pence for a pint. Whereas it's only going to cost you 84 pence for two pints in a plastic bottle in the supermarket. If you've got a family, frankly, you're not going to be able to be, you're not going to pay twice as much to get just have your milk in a plastic bo-- in a glass bottle. However right that might be, it's alright for me. But, you know, if you've got children and you're going through four pints or so a day, you're not going to pay twice the price for it. It's, again, it's like the apples. It's, it's the economics tip it the wrong way. But as for takeaways, I don't in principle [inaudible] for doing takeaways and you could take your own containers and that's fine during lockdown, but, yeah.

<Facilitator: And [F6], what do you make of it?>

F6: Sorry, my voice was echoing back at me then (laughs). I don't, I don't really have takeaways either. But think of the younger people that I know that, er, do. I think part of you see it's the convenience and I think having to take your own in... I'm not sure that's gonna go down very well, really. I think there's a, there's a possibility that they would rather pay to have, you know as we said about carrier bags, that they'd rather just pay every time, rather than think of bringing their own and that sort of thing. I can't imagine it somehow. By the way, when we was talking about plastic round er, fruit and that sort of thing, I was thinking, how er my mum, that when she buys her fruit and that now she won't buy them unless they are wrapped. Because of Covid, she doesn't feel that things are, you know, clean enough, even though they're things that you're going to wash because you're only going to wash them, you know, say apples, you're only going to rinse it under the tap, you're not going to get rid of, you know, germs as such. You know, it wasn't how she used to think about it. But, but yes, you know, now she doesn't want them unless they're actually wrapped. Which of course is in plastic.

<Facilitator: Yeah, I can, I can totally understand that. Yeah, great. Well, thank you. That's been really helpful. Really interesting. I have a couple of photos I just want to show you and see what you make of those. So I'm just going to share the screen. Let's see. [shows Image 1] So, can you see that okay? Right. So this is, you might have seen these in, I think they sell them in Waitrose and Ocado online. So it says on the front, 'Natoora', that's the brand name. It says, "This film is 100% plastic-free", and then it's got the name of the product, which is cherry tomatoes in this case. So that's the front of the packaging. The side looks like this [shows Image 2]. And the back looks like this [shows Image 3]. So, what do you make of this? What do you buy something like this? What would you think of this packaging?>

F6: I'm confused. Why does it say to put it in your food waste? Oh, your food waste bin, not just your waste bin. You mean to... Yeah, yeah. The trouble is, you see, it's very difficult to recycle anything, because I live in a, a block of flats. And we've got the bins downstairs. Now in theory, one was supposed to be for recycling. But... although no one ever uses it for recycling anyway, it's pointless, 'cause they just all get collected and they're in the same thing. The binmen-- they're not normal wheelie bins, they're the big industrial size, er, things, you know, so there isn't any, you know, anywhere, you know, downstairs to recycle it without having to actually, you know, take yourself off somewhere and put it somewhere else.

F7: But isn't the point of this film that it's biodegradable? Erm, because the National Trust send out, the National Trust send out their magazines and things and you put it in your food waste, because it's biodegradable in the same way that, as it says, orange peel would be, so it's not recyclable in the plastic sense, but it's biodegradable, it doesn't leave a footprint.

F9: The only thing I found with the biodegradable things is I have to put them into my landfill bin. Because the time it actually takes, I tried putting a couple of things in my composter, because I naively thought that they would break down very quickly

F7: No, they--

F9: And over time, I've subsequently learned. But even if we put this into landfill, regardless of what it is, when you then seal the landfill, you deprive the landfill site of oxygen. And in order for the erm, the digestive processes to take place, you're going to need oxygenation and stirring it up. So once it seals, whatever we seal in, it is still gonna be there, isn't it? We don't, I mean, what gases are this, is this stuff going to give off? Where's the research in science into... We know what methane does, we know it has to be vented, but we don't yet know what the alternatives are, unless it's something made as simple as maybe from things like starch, and--

F7: It's sugars I think, isn't it, this biodegradable film, it's supposed to be sugars, but I don't know the technical details of it so there was a bit on the National Trust, one of the magazines a while ago, what they were wrapping them in, so, that's my only source of information. But yes, I mean methane is a byproduct of landfill sites, it's syphoned off and used.

F9: So we should actually really be, yes, this is a step in the right direction, and it would be preferable for me as a choice. I'm not sure that the labelling was quite as in your face as it needs to be to make people know what it is. But will people bother to separate the tray and the top? I mean, we have great recycling in West Sussex. In fact, we recycle more than we don't. So when I go away to other areas on holiday, and Cumbria was one, I was absolutely gobsmacked when I camped at the lack of things that you could recycle in your area, compared to what I'm used to recycling at home. So, again, it's got to become a nationwide strategy where everyone can do the same. So that wherever you are, wherever you go, everyone knows, a bit like a fire extinguisher, "this colour means this, this colour means that" and you all can put the rubbish away in the right place.

F7: It is very difficult, even for very simple things. I, I was at a meeting on Wednesday, and somebody was complaining that somebody was putting green waste in the green bin and I said, "Well, what's the problem with that?" Because this was Northamptonshire. And if you're in Rutland, you certainly put your green waste in your green bin. But it's only three miles over the border, you know. And I was totally confused that, er, "No, no, no, no, you don't put your green waste in the green bin, you put it in the brown bin". And I thought (laughs)

F9: So you see, it's-- 

F7: Bonkers--

F9: It's just so confusing. 

F7: Yeah, it's bonkers.

F9: We tend to bring everything home where we know what to do with it, if we've been for a day out.

F7: National Trust say that they're wrapping in their magazine says potato starch.

F9: Yes, they do.

F7: That's what it is. I knew I'd read it somewhere. It's potato starch. So, I presume this is a similar sort of thing.

<Facilitator: And, so I mean, is this appealing to you if you saw this and it was in the supermarket alongside your usual brand? And it says 'plastic-free' on the front, would that have any influence over you maybe deciding to buy it or not to buy it?>

F7: It's a step in right direction. I wonder what the price difference is.

F9: That's just my thought, the price comparison will be the decider.

F7: Will for many people won't it?

F9: For many people, yes. 

F7: Not for her majesty, presumably, but, er.

<Facilitator: So we'd like the erm, the logos to be more obvious, to be, the directions to be more more obvious. Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you. And is there anything that you currently buy that you buy because it's plastic-free? And that's the reason you buy it?>

F9: It's not so much what I buy, I changed my practices in lockdown in as much as I take my tubs, because I found a farm shop. Okay, I have to drive. It's a once-a-month event out of the, to another place. And I can buy and get my meat, like, in my own containers, d'you know, like from fresh, so I'm not having any plastics. That's how I got rid of most my plastics. But if I couldn't drive, I could not do it because I couldn't... There's no public transport to the farm shop. I learned about it in the first pandemic when we were short of like, a lot of stuff around where I live, and gluten-free, I feel for [F7] because my son's coeliac. And people that didn't need to buy that pasta round where I live, they bought that as well, they cleared the shelves. So honestly, I, but I have now become a loyal customer of a particular farm shop. And today I got a tray of eggs, like I get 30 eggs at a time from a, erm, place a poultry farm that sells them direct to, you know you can go and queue up and go for walks. But I've lived here for over 35 years in my house and I didn't know that these places existed. So we are really a town that, we are a commuter town that has been raped of all shopping centres. We're derelict pretty much, with no markets, no anything. And if you are young and working full time, you're going to go to the supermarket or have it delivered. If you're elderly, you're going to walk into the town centre where we have a choice of two supermarkets. One is Waitrose, one is Iceland. That's the two ends of the spectrum that they serve. If you want to go to the others, they're all out of town, needing cars. So it's, it's erm, I think consumer choice is limited to what is available. Because people will take the easy option. I now have the time to go off out and do things. Because I work part-time. When I was working full-time and commuting, I wouldn't have had the time to go around all these different places, bringing up a family.

F6: Mm.

<Facilitator: Yeah. So we're we're limited by what's available and, and different people in different areas have different different availability, don't they? Erm, [F8] and, [F6], do you have anything you'd like to add on that before we, before we move on, on plastic-free things?>

F8: I think sometimes we can think we're making a step in the right direction. But unless we know more about what this new packaging is made from and how it's made, and so on, we may not actually be doing the right thing, we might think we're doing the right thing. I think so much of this is so confusing, erm. Yeah. I think there's so many people who genuinely do want to make the right choices. But it's hard to know what they are, and I think if I saw something like that, and it was affordable, yeah, I would definitely go for it. And I try to feed the packaging to my worms, and see if they'd eat that. They seem to eat most things that are biodegradable, so that's another thing that's not going to landfill, erm. But it is really hard, and it is really confusing, and I think the government has a large part to play, I mean we're trying to do our small part. But I think that they could, they could achieve a lot more if they would achieve a lot more in moving this process forward.

F6: It sounds appealing that the, you know, the packaging and what have you but it's more that in theory it does rather than in practice it does for me, because, you know, like I've already explained about the bins also there's no garden, there's, you can't compost anything. I've got no garden. I don't, you know, I don't have any of these facilities. So what would I do with it that would be any different to what I would do with the rest of the rubbish?

F8: Also, if it says 'Austria' on it, has it come as it come in from Austria? Have we bought this and has it done all those miles to get here?

F6: I think on the other, one of the other photographs show the other side of it, I think it did say that it had come from somewhere else.

F7: It says 'Austria' on the bottom.

F8: I can't read that on the bottom. 

F9: I can't.

F7: On the bottom, it says 'Austria'.

F9:Yeah, that would put me off buying it.

F7: The food itself has come from Italy.

F8: Mm.

F9: Yeah. Which again, would be another one of my personal avoids. I look for anything that's British-grown. 

F8: Yeah.

<Facilitator: So there's a lot of factors playing in as well, not just what it's made of, but where it's come from as well. Yeah.>

F7: Yeah. Aldi have got very nice British-grown piccolo tomatoes in at the moment. That's my [inaudible] at the minute.

<Facilitator: Nice. So, thank you. That was a really good discussion about plastic, I think. I feel like I've learned a lot about plastics. I thought we could also talk about reuse. We have a little bit already. There are a couple of videos I wanted to show you and, and see what you think of them. But first, actually, I'd like to ask a similar question to before so: what do you think of when you hear the word 'reuse'? So what does reuse mean to you? Anybody.>

F9: You can use it more than once. It can be refilled. 

F7: Personal reuse, there's personal reuse and then there's the manufacturer's reuse, isn't there. You know, if you've got something in a package and you look at that and you think, "Oh, I could use that as a... whatever". You know, you buy things in a plastic tub and then you can use the plastic tub as storage or whatever. Or a glass jar, you know, in the [inaudible] to have some things in that, mini Kilner jars, and the conserve and things, but you can use as those storage jars. Jolly useful they are too. But then the other sort of reuse is what, what should happen at the end of recycling when things are repurposed in bulk.

F9: The old-fashioned milkman comes to mind, that we-- 

F7: Yes, I [inaudible] as well, but there is a cost involved in that.

F9: Yeah.

F8: It makes me think of when the charge came in for supermarket carrier bags. 

F7: Yeah.

F8: And back in the day, I have to hold my hands up, I probably had hundreds of them. I'm sure we probably all did. And then we've moved to the longer lifespans, but I'm, I'm not quite sure how friendly they are. Again, it's--

F9: I think they should be abolished.

F8: Sorry?

F9: They should be abolished. If you don't... if you go shopping, you take a bag, if you buy something on spec, you've got hands or a cardboard box. And if-- 

F8: No I, what I mean is, er--

F9: If we did away with it completely... I'm harsh, but this is where we need to be. Because the younger generation will just pay their 50p, it doesn't matter how much you charge them for a bag, they will just pay.

F8: I was referring though to the 'bag for life' type of bags, which are also plastic bags, aren't they. 

F9: Yeah, that's what I mean, so they're, they might be being reused, remade, which is good, but we're still encouraging disposability.

F8: Yes.

F9: Because how many of them just get dumped?

F6: Mm.

F9: 'Cause when I was a girl, if my mom sent you to the shop, you would take your bag. And again, if, if this is one of those things that, we're bringing children and grandchildren up, that that's the norm... So, it's the bit in the middle. We can educate children. We're all educated and have made educated choices. What we need to do is reach the, the gap. Like you say there's a lot of people want to do the right thing. We need to help them do the right thing. So if those options at the end of the checkout, were not there, they'd only have to carry it once in a cardboard box and they'd remember!

F7: Well of course years ago, you'd go through a supermarket checkout and there, at the checkout, will be a stack of plastic, er, cardboard boxes ready for people to reuse for exactly that. But because most stuff now comes packed on trays with plastic shrink wrapping, they don't have the stock, the erm stocks of plastic, er cardboard purple boxes to put there. One time you could come up to the checkout and put your stuff into a cardboard box, erm, from the shelf but erm, most stuff is not packed like that any more.

F6: When did it become a thing having plastic carrier bags at the shop? I'm trying to remember. I can remember my mum's shopping bag but I can't remember for the life of me whether or not there was plastic bags at the same time. I'm talking about in er, in the 80s. When did plastic bags actually--

F7: Yeah, because it's an advertising thing as well, isn't it? It's not just about convenience. It was an advertising ploy because wherever walk about you're advertising. 

F6: That is true. 

F7: Walking about with your Tesco's bag... I would think even earlier than the 80s, I'm just trying to think back.

F9: I, I think it was 80s, mid-80s.

F7: Oh, was it.

F8: Well supermarkets kicked off mid-70s, didn't they, I think?

F7: Mm.

F8: And before that you wouldn't, you would have gone to a grocer's shop wouldn't you, really.

F7: You would. Because they used to have erm, paper carrier bags of course with the string handles, which is what preceded them. 

F8: And you'd probably shop daily or more frequently. 

F7: Yeah.

F8: It would be interesting to know if there are many countries who are successful in their plastic use and what they've done.

F7: Ah, the little local supermarket to my son in Brussels, it's a Carrefour, does not have carrier bags. If you forget your bag, you pay a euro and you buy a cotton bag. 

F9: That's what we need to adopt. I really think--

F7: Then you use it. Then you do reuse it, I've got one here. But you can't buy a plastic bag in the in the mini Carrefour, which is a step in the right direction I suppose.

F9: I don't recall ever seeing any bags when we went to little shops in Italy when we stayed out there at all, in their little supermarkets.

F7: No. [inaudible]

F9: I mean, the supermarkets could still actually put their logos and advertising on a cotton bag, couldn't they?

F7: Oh, they do. It does, it says 'Carrefour' and it's got the emblem on the other side.

F9: So from their perspective, they could still get their market on branding, free, free advertising everywhere. 

F7: Mm.

F9: But in a more sustainable way, but then you have to be careful of the cotton. 

F7: Oh, yeah. 

F9: Everything has pluses and minuses.

F7: Certainly does. But actually paying a euro for it makes you think, "next time, next time I'll remember to bring a bag, frankly".

F9: I sadly feel that where I live, you know, if you charged the kids around here a pound, they wouldn't bat an eyelid. So it needs to be of a sufficient amount that people are going to cringe, to have to part with that, that would make them actually think about it. Because we've brought up... It's the twenty-somethings, are a serious disposable society where I live, I mean, I don't know about all of the country, but I can only speak about here. And if you... you've got to charge them something like five pounds before they're going to bat an eyelid. A pound, they'll think nothing of it.

<Facilitator: So it sounds like there are ways of doing things that either we've done them in the past, but they're not currently being done, or they're being done in other places, but they're not being done. So it sounds like there are some solutions that currently already exist or have existed in the past, and it's just about bringing them in and bringing them in here, I guess is what it sounds like. Rather than you know, we're not, we don't know what the solution would be. We've got we've got some ideas of what that solution could look like. I have a couple of videos to show you. And we've touched a little bit on this idea of regionality and what's available in different regions. So let me find it. This is Asda. This is an Asda in Middleton in Leeds. I don't think any of you really are in Leeds, are you? But for people in Leeds, this is something that is available. So I'd just like to show you. [shows Video 1] Okay, and there's just one other very short video. [shows Video 2] So what do you make of that? They're obviously both from the same place. That's the Asda Middleton refill station that they've just launched. What, what do you make of that? Would you use something like that?>

F9: Well, we have a completely separate standalone refill shop that's in the middle of the town. I think it's a good idea. It might encourage more people in a supermarket because it's easy for them. I think with liquids like washing up liquid and shampoo, contamination risk isn't quite as bad. But for foods, I think there is, there is a huge element of cross-contamination risk if Joe public can use the tongs for this, that and the other. So I don't know. I'm not sure. It also depends on people being organised, having their shopping list, knowing what they want, taking their stuff with them... Or are they just gonna go and pick it off the shelf because it's quicker? I don't know.

F6: It's making me think about when you've got the self-service, er, checkout. And how there's some people that will avoid them. And, you know, not going to even bother trying to use them. And seeing it like that, and you think, "Oh, crikey". You know, if someone was standing there doing it for me, it seems much more preferable than "you want me to do it? What if I don't know what I'm doing when I'm doing it? I don't think, I, you know, and there's people queuing up behind me to use it, oh, crikey now", you know. That's how it made me feel.

F9: But would you go into one of the shops like we have in town where you take your stuff, and the girl serves you, you say what you want, and she takes your jar, weighs it and does it for you?

F6: Yes, that would be preferable to me, than me having to use the technology and know how to do it. I don't like er, technology. And I would feel uncomfortable and under pressure that I might not know what I'm doing. And there's people waiting to use it. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't use it, no, for that reason.

<Facilitator: What do you think, [F7] and [F8]? What do you make of that?>

F8: I think it's a step in the right direction, maybe. It's people trying, isn't it? It's people making an effort. And even if others are not using them, it's creating more awareness of the need to do it. I don't think I'd want to pick teabags out with tongs, particularly, but tea is quite easy to wrap in, in cardboard without really needing an awful lot of packaging, isn't it? I don't know, I've reserved judgement, I think it's a, I think it's a positive step.

F7: I can't see it coming to the Co-op in Uppingham very soon. I can't imagine our local populace embracing it, but I wonder if it will be more, if it's one measure that would appeal to younger people. The novelty, I don't know. I can think far back to when there was a chain of shops called Weigh and Save, which, erm--

F9: Oh, I remember some of those, did they have everything in a big drum?

F7: Yes, they did. And of course, one of the big worries there was you didn't know who'd have their hand in beforehand. But yours was somebody to serve you, to sort of get around that. 

F9: Yes. It's a new enterprise. 

F7: And it gets around that worry of who's been serving last...

F9: Yeah, it's quite nice, because they weigh your container, whatever container it is, or reusable... they weigh it first on the scale, then they add whatever.

F7: Mm.

F9: And, you know, and then price it afterwards. But the downside can be it can actually cost you more. Because I realised today that how much I paid to have my washing up liquid refill, because normally I buy a five-litre one online when I do bulk buy, but because I, it was the end of the month and I just went to the refill shop and I had it refilled, then when I was in Waitrose today I realised I could have bought a brand new bottle of Ecover the same size for cheaper than I paid to have it refilled at the refill shop. So, the fact that you had to buy your first bottle in that machine before you, obviously you didn't pay for the bottles subsequently, it's almost like they're going to make money out for you for each item you're going to buy on the first one that you can't just take a, empty bottle, a clean bottle of your own--

F7: No--

F9: Whereas my refill shop...

F7: Take anything.

F9: You can take any container you want, and they'll put it in. And actually-- 

F7: [inaudible] Sorry--

F8: Don't you think that's like paying more for your carrier bag, because it's more of a guarantee that you're going to bring it back and reuse it because it's cost you?

F7: But logically for a lot of those bottles you're going to buy more than one because who waits until the washing up, or the laundry liquid has absolutely run out before you go and refill it? So you're going to have two of them, aren't you? Because you're always going to have one in reserve. 

F9: Yeah. 

F7: I mean, you could say they're onto a good thing.

F9: I think so. I think it will appeal to the younger generation to, to do it, they will just pay... they won't even take it back to refill. They'll just possibly... No, trust me! Round here they will just go, oh, there's a particular Tesco's on the outside of town where a certain demographic of people go shopping, and their customers will, might fill it up because it's trendy, but they will buy, the next time around they won't take the bottle back they'll just refill it!

<Facilitator: So it's like they will, they'll carry their stainless steel Persil bottle around and look, look trendy with it?>

F7: It'll look good in the, in the utility room, yes.

F9: Yes. Yeah, pretty much. And then they'll go to the normal aisle next time around and just buy whatever, but have the right one on show. The psychology of customer behaviour. 

F7: Yeah. 

<Facilitator: There's definitely something aesthetic to it, isn't there? Would you, would you want to pay extra for one of these reusable containers, would you expect it to look more premium than a single-use container? Would you want something a bit more special, you know, for paying that extra to have that, say, like a stainless steel bottle or something?>

F9: Possibly. I would pay, I would pay extra on the basis of it will last you longer than even a reusable plastic, but then, is that... you wouldn't be able to convert everybody all at once, would you?

F7: No.

F9: And if you've got several of them to take, as I have found, if you've got a whole load of empties to take to get refilled, the weight of it can actually be quite heavy if you're walking to the shops with them so... it's, I don't think it's going to appeal to the masses, it's not going to become mainstream. 

<Facilitator: And what are main barriers, do you think? What are the main barriers to it becoming mainstream, in your, in your view? And anybody, everybody, shout out what you think about that.>

F9: As a child, we used to get money back for our bottles, I don't know if you remember taking them back--

F7: (laughs) Certainly do--

F9: You know, you'd be sent as a kid that might be your job and that would be like when you've taken the bottles back you can treat yourself to some sweets with whatever you got. Now if you could return the bottles, whatever bottles, and physically get cash out of a machine for it, that might actually help reduce waste because children are going to want to do it, if people on low incomes, they might be more inclined to take stuff back if they're going to get some money out, to go and heaven help us, buy it on whatever they spend it on. Might not be healthy choices but they'll get their money back but actually what they're doing is putting into helping the recycling process. 

F7: Mm.

F9: I think we need to look at bigger incentives. And doorstep delivery again without paying a premium. Not, not, we've got online shopping. But that's not the same as your milkman every day. Or every couple of days. There's no comparison.

<Facilitator: Yeah. So doorstop, er, doorstep return scheme, is that what you mean? So bring, you put the empties and they get the empties and that sort of thing.>

F9: Yeah, something that simple. But then for people like [F6] that live in flats I really struggle to know how that can work. 

F6: Yes, 'cause the milkman won't come here. [inaudible]

<Facilitator: Any other barriers you can think of to, to it becoming mainstream, besides-->

F7: I think possibly just the time because, you know, doing all of that takes a bit of time, grabbing a bottle off the shelf and shoving it in the trolley, much quicker. Well, time and convenience, I think are much... quite important for most people these days. They've got used to it

F8: I think also if you have a reasonable spray bottle, the spray part, the components in that don't always last as long as you'd like them. 

F7: No.

F9: No.

<Facilitator: So durability, then, things need, yeah, they need to stand the test of time if they're going to be successful. Um, are there any things that you wouldn't be comfortable having on a refill or a return basis? Like, we talked about, you know, detergent and things like that not having a contamination issue... Are there any other products that you know, you, you definitely wouldn't want them in a in a reusable or returnable container?>

F9: I don't use flour, even at the refill shop. Because I have separate flour, obviously I have a gluten-free, and we have other flour and depends what I'm making and the order but I definitely would be very wary of flours. Because you get flour dust. If someone opens a new bag of flour and the dust comes out, then it can travel. I think there's a huge risk.

F7: Mm. Yes, I think also with things like there's always a risk of importing mites as well, because they're quite common. Even in the [inaudible] flour, occasionally. Yeah.

<Facilitator: Flour because it's er, I guess you're, it's like a volatile substance is what you're saying, it can spread and it doesn't, it's hard to contain. So is there anything else like that, that you feel you wouldn't feel comfortable, let's say taking from a dispenser or having somebody served out to you.>

F7: I think there's a whole area to explore really with packaging as to how much we equate packaging with hygiene. Erm, and safety, safety in terms of cross-combination for people with intolerances, of course, but just generally, the whole issue of, you know, things being nicely packaged equals being hygienic and uncontaminated. There's a whole area there. You know, you see people looking at potatoes in a market stall like "Oh my goodness me they've got dirt on them." 

F9: (laughs)

F7: Erm. You know. Well they do! (laughs) You can wash them. But--

F9: I mean things like yoghurt, yoghurts and anything with live cultures, erm... things like milk, you know, you really want to know, that the container in it, whatever it's in, whether it's in... If it comes in a milk bottle, that bottle has been through a sterilising process. 

F7: Mm.

F9: But you, I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily like to go to a supermarket and think that they've cleaned out the er, milk dispenser properly. 

F7: Mm. 

F9: Do you know, like just, I, I don't know. I would go to maybe the farm shop. I know that the little local dairy, who, because it's his livelihood, I think might take more care in making sure that it was how it should be. Whereas a big chain supermarket, I, I would be more cautious. I mean, since lockdown, I won't buy the bread and things off the, you know the, the what d'you call it, the bakery in the supermarket. So if they're open, and they've been in the supermarket, you don't know who's touched them. I won't buy any of that, I make my own.

<Facilitator: That's so interesting about the yoghurts that you mentioned. So does everybody else feel that that way about yoghurt? How would you feel if you went to the supermarket and they had like a yoghurt dispenser? Would you be likely to use it? What would you think of that?>

F8: I wouldn't want to use it at all.

F7: No, I think I'd worry about any food with a protein base because it's... Yeah.

F8: Up here there was a, er, one of the farms does live milk from a milk machine. And a lot of people got ill. And the farm, of course there was a big investigation, but it was actually people's containers that they were bringing in were not sufficiently clean, they found out. But you can become quite ill quite quickly, can't you, especially if you've not been brought up having raw milk.

F7: Yep. Yeah.

<Facilitator: So even if the erm, they were saying that if the dispenser is all clean and everything, the risk that somebody might bring something that's not sterile... is it because it was milk? And that's why it was dangerous when it mixed with the bacteria or, what, do you know what happened then?>

F8: I can't, I can't remember. Erm. I can't remember. I think the people got food poisoning or... 

F7: Could be E. coli.

F8: I don't remember the name of bacteria. It's raw milk as well, so it's the unpasteurised milk, erm... which is, you know, can cause problems too, can't it?

<Facilitator: Yeah. Was this [shop name]?>

F8: It was, yeah. 

<Facilitator: Yeah, I've been there. I think I heard something about that in the news.>

F8: Yeah, I live just along from there, yeah. 

<Facilitator: Oh, do you, oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, I thought vaguely it sounded familiar. But erm, so there's clearly some sort of, something about about dairy then. So, in supermarkets, what, no, no milk or yoghurt? Do you think? Or is there a way that it could be done?>

F9: Not on the mass scale, and the number of people that have, that actually handle it. And I think that is the biggest problem. If you've got Joe Public handling the food...

F7: Mm

F9: ...then of course, you're going to get cross-contamination. Anyone that works in food handling, has to take exams, and you know, like, level three, like two and three... in order to handle the food. And yet, Joe Bloggs can go along and suddenly be qualified to cross-contaminate the world? I don't think so.

<Facilitator: And what do you think, [F6]? How would you feel about buying yoghurt from a dispenser?>

F6: It's not hygienic. It would really put me off even moreso, having listened to what you've been saying about it. To be honest, I'm more put off now than I was at the start of that! (laughs) But yeah, hygiene is the most important, you know, really, and I know the environment's important, but, you know, I would put er, you know, hygiene and safety and that above er, you know, what would be best for the environment.

<Facilitator: Yeah, yeah, I totally, I totally understand. So, is there anything that you definitely would be happy to take from this then? So you've already mentioned some things you get from refill shops. And if there were a dispensing unit, let's say, that's similar to the Asda one, but let's say it becomes mainstream, and you see it in every supermarket, every major supermarket, you know, what kind of things would you, would you like to get from those if you were to use them, or if you didn't want to use them?>

F6: Shampoo and conditioner is what I'd like to do refills with. I get through quite a lot of that.

F9: For me, the refill has to be plant-based, natural and organic vegan stuff. So that's another reason I go to the shop. So that was a Unilever. So that's all absolute chemicals and petrochemicals. So I would be looking for, like, if, they would need to have a choice. So you can choose to have your petrochemicals and you can choose to have other alternatives. But I do toilet cleaner, which is good as well as the washing up liquid, and the shampoo, floor cleaner, that sort of thing. So they're the liquids. But I don't use washing, like, liquid in a bottle. I just use, I've gone back to old-fashioned powder in a box, which I actually get more for my money, and cardboard packaging.

F8: And for the shampoos and conditioners I've been trying out the bars.

F9: Yep.

F8: I do have hair like straw, currently,and I've got strange blonde streaks, which I think have come because my hair is so dry from using it. But again, there's others out there. I'm just not going to throw that away. I'm going to use it and experiment and find, but I just don't have those bottles any more in my bathroom, which is wonderful. It's a lot less clutter. It lasts forever, which is probably a downside as I've got straw hair now, erm (laughs) and it's a lot cheaper too.

F9: Well, I pay 1.44 for a refill of my shampoo, which was, when I bought it was like 7 for that particular bottle. And instead of having to buy different shampoo for everybody, all of the family now use the one because we finally found one that everyone likes (laughs). Erm, but we have soap. We don't have liquid soaps or anything, I use bars. But only ones that come in cardboard packaging.

F8: Yeah. But it's so much nicer actually, isn't it?

F9: It is yes. Yeah. 'Cause after all, we always used to have soap when we grew up. I don't even know when liquid soap became the thing! Probably in the 90s.

F8: I think it was 80s, 90s, when there was the boom economy and it was spend, spend, spend, I suppose, and they entered into our world. Conditioner didn't exist before then I don't think, did it? Conditioner was something quite new.

F9: I didn't use conditioner, I just (laughs) shampoo just does the job.

F7: Yes I think it's just become the norm to have liquid soap and shower gels. I still use blocks of soap. I have liquid soap in my downstairs loo, because it's, it's used by a lot of visitors. And that's what they expect to see. But I stayed with my granddaughter and her mum a couple of years ago, and I was unpacking my bag, and my granddaughter went, "Eurgh, do you use soap?" She said, "That's not hygienic, is it, Granny?" And I said, "Well, actually...". (laughs) You know, so that's that's what she'd been brought up with, with shower gel and liquid soap and all the rest of it, really had a very low opinion of a good old-fashioned bar of soap, even though it was very nice soap. Erm.

F8: I hope you gave her a good wash with it. I remember being scrubbed by my granny with bars of soap 'til I glowed as a child. 

F7: I suppose that's what's put her off.

F9: (laughs)

F7: It's just, it's a generational thing. It's what she's been brought up with.

F9: I mean, they do do shower gel in this shop, but I haven't actually bought any yet. I haven't tried it.

F7: I hate shower gel, because it makes the bottom of the bath slippery. That's my objection to it.

<Facilitator: So it sounds like it's also to do with preferences, you know what we, it's, it's not just what's, you know, most trendy or progressive or environmentally friendly. It's also, you know, what we're comfortable using, and what we've grown up with. Just before we come to a close, erm, does anybody have any kind of last things they'd like to add about plastics and reuse that you've maybe thought of, during the course of this discussion, or anything you'd like to add basically, on these, these subjects?>

F9: I've become very aware of the differences in how people can live, thanks to [F6]. I appreciate that, because I've never really considered what it must be like to live in a flat and how difficult making the changes can be. So thank you.

F6: Mm. Okay.

F8: I think, I think I just feel a huge concern that there's lots of us out there trying but that's never going to be enough, is it?

F7: No.

F8: It has to come from government, it has to come from the manufacturers, er, and we're talking about sort of personal choice of soap. If soap companies looked into making their soap, like, something that everybody would want to buy, if their advertising was about bars of soap, you know, maybe there'd be that kind of cultural shift, rather than just, you know, some of us making that personal choice. And we can try our best. But it's, we're not going to make sufficient difference are we, to, to our world as individuals. I don't mean we shouldn't do it. But I can't believe how little our government is doing.

F9: But sometimes I think supermarkets and big corporate company-- companies are almost more effective than politicians because if you think how they send the subliminal messages, and affect customer behaviour already, they have got the skillset required in order to, to deliver those subliminal messages and work on the psychology of customer behaviour and customer change. After all, tapping for everything as we pay as we go. If you'd have said to us all, ten years ago, "Oh, you won't need to take cash in your purse, pandemic or otherwise, you'll just tap and pay", we would all have probably laughed. So it, within the grasp of big business, big corporation, they are the ones in the driving seat. They're the ones with the power, because they're, and also it's all about getting the message out on erm, via influencers on social media. That's how to hit the younger generation, isn't it? We've got to hit them through TikTok on YouTube and get the sponsorships and the messaging with the people that that is their world. Because it's like almost we live two different worlds within our society and, also, regionally. But that's just my observation.

F7: But it's a huge cultural shift, which is about more than just packaging. It's all about use of time and about convenience and what is seen as valuable. And it's just this huge thing. I think in the end, you do end up doing what you can do and not worrying about too [inaudible] in the end about what you can't do. It's doing what you can and what's in front of you. And hoping that cumulatively, you know, as Mother Teresa's approach of erm, people told her that what she did was a drop in the ocean. And she said, "Well, the ocean is composed of millions of drops". And, you know, what you do looks infinitesimally small and insignificant, but it's very, very important that you do it. And you hope that cumulatively it has some sort of effect. That the whole way in which we live is so different, in so many different ways, in how people live. I mean, who would have thought ten years ago, yes, we wouldn't have tapped our cards to spend money, but who would have said ten years ago, we'd sit looking at a TV screen, erm, having a conversation with people spread around the UK, you know? Life has just changed, and very quickly in the last 18 months, in this respect.

F6: Mm.

<Facilitator: Yes, absolutely. Any final words from anybody else? [F6]?>

F6: Got nothing else to add. 

<Facilitator: Okay, that's fine. And [F8]?>

F8: No, thank you very much, though. 

<Facilitator: Well, ladies, it's been such a pleasure. It's been so lovely to speak with you all. And it's been a really, really valuable discussion for our work. So thank you so much for coming and for giving your views.>

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